Teaching Vocabulary and Grammar Online
May 2005

Moderators

Dafne Gonzalez

Teresa Almeida
d'Eça

DafneG joined the room.

TeresaD joined the room.

DafneG: hi Tere

DennisOl joined the room.

DafneG: Welcome Dennis

DennisOl: Well, that wasn't hard.

TeresaD: hi dennis

TeresaD: and hi hostess!

DafneG: no it is not :-)

TeresaD: fast trip, wasn't it, dennis?

DennisOl: Definitely!

DafneG: and Katherine?

DennisOl: But I appreciated your extra direx, Teresa.

KatherinH joined the room.

DennisOl: I was getting a little bit disoriented until you mentioned
the door icon.

TeresaD: i'm glad, dennis

KatherinH: me too!

TeresaD: here you are, katherine

DennisOl o)

KatherinH: it took me a while bec I'm a novice

DafneG: welcome, Katherine!

DennisOl: Everyone's a novice when it comes to something new!

DafneG: you can look around my office

TeresaD: we're always learning. did maggi or david help you?

DafneG: right, Dennis!

DennisOl: How do we look around, Dafne?

KatherinH: maggi helped

DafneG: look at the upper part of the screen

DafneG: and see the features offices have

TeresaD: daf has all her links up to date! i don't!!! :-(

TeresaD: i'm waiting for the summer vacation to put several things in
order

DafneG: no, they are not updated, Tere

DennisOl: I saw many of them: very interesting!

DafneG: Saturday morning is like a day at the fair in my house grrr.

DennisOl: Lots of wonderful information!

DafneG: thanks, Dennis

DennisOl: 8o)

DafneG: I will try to update it during the summer, too, he he

DennisOl: I'm in the same boat, Dafne.

KatherinH: very interesting office!

DennisOl: I have a hybrid grammar course that's about 80% usable.

DafneG: thanks

DennisOl: Lots to add, refine, improve this summer.

DafneG: I would like to hear about it, Dennis, or take a look at it

DennisOl: It'll be offered beginning mid-August.

KatherinH: what are "webheads?"

TeresaD: i'm also interested

DennisOl: Right now, I don't have it set up for guest access, but I can
do that.

DafneG: who is the target audience?

TeresaD: a community of practice of EFL/ESL teachers worldwide

DennisOl: target for my course: adults studying ESL in a community
college.

TeresaD: we have been together for over 3 years and are always in
action one way or another, ketherine

DafneG: I would like to see the approach to grammar for adults

DennisOl: Most are working adults who want to improve English
only—not necessarily to use it as a tool to go on to college-transfer work.

DafneG: I have always taught ESP or EST using a CBI methodology

DennisOl: In my particular case, there are certain required areas that
have to be taught.

TeresaD: such as, dennis?

DennisOl: This is a challenge because they're conceptually difficult.

DennisOl: a variety of difficult verb tenses.

DennisOl: present and past perfect, for example.

DennisOl: They're difficult conceptually and also require a lot of
memorizing.

DafneG: they are more difficult if students do not understand what to
do with those tenses

TeresaD: the present perfect is one of those difficult areas, isn't
it?!

DennisOl: Yes, to both Daf and Tere.

DennisOl: I see my challenge as moving students from understanding the
rules . . .

TeresaD: and the difference between pres. perf and spast is also a hard
area

DafneG: brb- dog is trying to bite someone at the door

DennisOl: . . . to understanding and using them.

TeresaD: lol daf

TeresaD: exactly, dennis

DennisOl: Definitely, Tere.

DennisOl: Many of my students are Spanish-speakers from Mexico.

TeresaD: i always tell my students to avoid memorizing rues. they have
to understand examples and know how to adapt in slightly different
situations

DennisOl: Definitely, Tere.

TeresaD: rules up there, i meant

DennisOl: This works well with academically-oriented students.

DennisOl: But maybe less well with non-academically-oriented students.

KatherinH: I have found that by memorizing the rule does not really
help them learn how to use tenses

TeresaD: right, dennis

DafneG: back, sorry

TeresaD: right, katherine

DennisOl: In F2F classes I spend a great deal of time getting and
giving examples.

DennisOl: Definitely, Katherine.

TeresaD: they need a lot of practice and attebntion/concentration
during the practice. with younger students that's not always easy!

DennisOl: Ditto for learning from textbook exercises--unless checked in
class (which takes a LOT of time).

KatherinH: do you think that grammar exercises work?

DennisOl: Katherine: Yes--but they have to be monitored.

TeresaD: i try to elicit a lot of examples from their own situations
whether in or out of class

DennisOl: And they also have to be supplemented and expanded to somehow
make them REAL.

TeresaD: right, dennis

DennisOl: Tere: Definitely. THAT's what makes rules work.

KatherinH: what do you mean by "monitored"?

DafneG: with my students it is different, because they find the tenses
and vocabulary embedded in the material they use in their profession

DennisOl: Just assuming that students understand because they wrote the
right answer doesn't tell very much.

TeresaD: but i feel that the more the examples relate to them, the
easier it'll be for them to understand

DennisOl: They could simply have copied the answer without
understanding WHY, for example.

DennisOl: Tere: Definitey!

DafneG: right, Dennis

TeresaD: right, dennis

DennisOl: We were working last week with future perfect.

DafneG: that's difficult

TeresaD: sure is

KatherinH: so what happened?

DennisOl: I elicited examples by asking how long Adrian, Violeta, and
others got married.

DennisOl: Then we projected the time two or three years into the
future.

TeresaD: i feel so lucky to have learned english in an english school
and to have studied in english till i was 16!

TeresaD: did it work well?

DafneG: yes, you were lucky, indeed

DennisOl: So if Adrian got married 7 years ago, in 2008 he will have
been married 10 years.

TeresaD: right. and do you feel they grabbed the idea more easily?

DennisOl: Yes, it worked. And you're VERY lucky to have learned English
in an English-medium school, Tere.

DafneG: maybe adults can grasp the future concept more easily than children

DennisOl: Tere: Yes.

DennisOl: Daf: I think you're right about adults / children and the
future.

DennisOl: Children are very "now"-oriented.

DafneG: future is too subjective for children

DafneG: here-and-now

KatherinH: true

DennisOl: Yes. Future is difficult conceptually.

TeresaD: i agree with you, daf and dennis

DafneG: btw, you will be analyzing online exercises in week 2

TeresaD: but even with the here and now, children have problems
distinguishing between spresent and pres. continuous.

DennisOl: Tere: Yes, I saw that.

DennisOl: Tere: But present and pres continuous are different
here-and-nows.

KatherinH: Why do you think that is?

TeresaD: and i also find that when they learn a tense and move on to
another, they always tend to use the previous tense for some time.
hmmm...

DennisOl: A Korean teacher of English said that the traditional names
for the English tenses are bad and misleading.

DafneG: yes, Tere, and here in Venezuela it is even more difficult,
because we use the simple present for both in our venezuelan Spanish

TeresaD: right. they are, dennis. but it's a propblem i've always had

DennisOl: My Korean friend calls the present tense "the fact and
again-again-again tense."

DafneG: not so in the Spanish used in Spain

TeresaD: we don't, daf. we have equivalents for both, but even so...

DennisOl: I think one of the hurdles my students struggle most with . .

TeresaD: i think one of the problems is that they don't know the basics
of their mother tongue grammar

TeresaD: it would help if they did

DennisOl: . . . is coming to grips with the fact that past a certain
point, you really can't translate.

TeresaD: true, dennis

DennisOl: Not directly anyway.

DafneG: we have equivalents too, but we don't differentiate much in
their use

DennisOl: Tere: I agree about mother-tongue grammar.

TeresaD: we differentiate, daf

TeresaD: and even the teachers of portuguese complain about that!!!

KatherinH: But if they are in school are they learning about their
mother tongue grammar?

TeresaD: and they write so badly

DennisOl: What you are saying, Tere, is exactly what teachers here say
about native-English speakers: they don't know grammar and they write
badly.

TeresaD: a little, katherine, in Portuguese, a subject where they learn
all different sorts of things

DennisOl: I think this happens (in the U.S., anyway) for two reasons:

DafneG: We get students at the university who are not able to get the
main idea of a text

DennisOl: First, grammar isn't really taught.

TeresaD: i don't know what's going on with these younger generations,
but it's incredible!

DennisOl: Second, students aren't accustomed to reading long blocks of
text.

KatherinH: Do you think it's the fact that they don't know grammar or
that they don't write enough?

DafneG: right, Dennis, it happens here too

TeresaD: everything is too visual these days and they are lazy about
reading

DennisOl: I think instant messaging and chatroom conventions and short
text blocks typical of webpages are part of the cause.

DafneG: I think they are not used to reading for understanding

TeresaD: i'd say both, katherine

DennisOl: Katherine: Yes.

KatherinH: I agree with you Dennis I find that most of my students
don't read.

DennisOl: And they are often not given explicit instruction in writing.

KatherinH: and when they do read they are not active readers.

DennisOl: I agree, Daf (about not used to reading for understanding).

DennisOl: Definitely, Katherine!

TeresaD: but IM and chatrooms haven't been around for as long as these
problems, dennis, though they may aggravate things. there must be other
reasons

DafneG: and it isn't anything new, I have seen it for the 30 + years I
have been teaching

DennisOl: Tere: Yes, you're probably right.

DafneG: right, tere

TeresaD: i don't have the answers, but i wish i did!

DennisOl: I've taught for more than 30 years, too, and these problems
have always existed, but they've gotten far worse, I think.

DafneG: I think that students are exposed to restricted kinds of
readings (school textbooks)

TeresaD: i think that they read very little and are often 'on the moon'
during class. i keep telling them to come down to planet classroom

DennisOl: Students nowadays seem to find it much harder to work on
sustained tasks--especially ones that require critical thinking and
attention to detail.

TeresaD: absolutely, dennis

DennisOl: Right, Tere!

DafneG: I agree, Dennis

TeresaD: it's hard work and they don't like it

DennisOl: Definitely!

TeresaD: they only like easy things. they don't like challenging things

KatherinH: I agree Dennis but how do we teach them to focus?

DennisOl: And maybe they were never required to do much of it in middle
school or high school!

TeresaD: that's the problem, katherine

DennisOl: I think we have to trick them!

TeresaD: right, dennis

DennisOl: Like having them choose a topic interesting to them . . .

DennisOl: . . . and then keeping a free reading journal.

KatherinH: I have been trying all semester, but they seem to not
care...

DennisOl: If you can trick them into doing that, they get practice with
both reading and writing.

DafneG: I think we have toask students to apply the information they
get from the readings to complete a task ( a project)

TeresaD: one thing that works with mine is varying the activities bec.
their attention span is short

DennisOl: I agree, Daf. Otherwise, it's simply something abstract and
essentially meaningless.

DafneG . o O ( my typing skills are not very good today )

DennisOl: Yes, it's important to keep things moving. Attention spans
can be quite short.

TeresaD: but of course they are only 10-111

TeresaD: 11!!!

KatherinH: My students are 18 and up

DafneG . o O ( kids and dogs have left, so I might be more concentrated
from now on ;-) )

TeresaD: and they like doing short but different exercises revolving
around the same thing

DafneG: mine too, Katherine

KatherinH: yet they act like they are 11

DennisOl: Students who're 10 and 11 can do amazing things, but sitting
still and concentrating on a single task for a long period of time is
torture for them!

TeresaD: lol

DafneG: well, it is a torture for me too, Dennis ;-)

TeresaD: but guess what? they can concentrate on the computer lessons
very easily for over an hour!

DafneG: right, Tere

TeresaD: they were born with it and relate to it fabulously

DennisOl: Tere: I think that's because they can move the computer
lessons along at whatever pace they want: THEY are in control, not you, not
group members.

DennisOl: And you're right about being born into computer use.

DafneG: I think schools should concentrate on reading and writing, in
their k-12 studies

TeresaD: true, dennis. but even when i'm a bit in control, they love it

DennisOl: Yes--because they can DO something: click, move the mouse,
see things move . . .

DafneG: right!!!

TeresaD: absolutely, daf. and i've been doing that in the CALL lessons
and i don't think they notice it. and it's working well

DennisOl: They can instantly "tap in" to whatever you have in mind.

TeresaD: right, dennis

TeresaD: it's curious that we all tecah in different parts of the world
and feel the same problems...

DennisOl: And the computer monitor kind of makes their own reality.

DafneG: my students in the architecture and urban planning course are
delighted with the online component, even though they are not savvy tech

DennisOl: Yes, definitel, Tere.

DennisOl: Oops: definitely.

DafneG: they see it as a challenge

DennisOl: But a challenge that they can meet.

DafneG: sure

TeresaD: maybe we should start some worldwide think tank group about
solutions to problems in education ;-)

KatherinH: I have used an online component yet but I'm planning on
trying very soon

DafneG: I give them all the instructions (step-by-step) and all the
help they need

DennisOl: Pointing and clicking and moving and searching is more
engaging than being presented with a long article and being expected to
digest it and then comment on it.

DennisOl: Katherine: Do use an online component--hopefully where you
can watch how students relate to it.

TeresaD: step-by-step instructions even work well with my young ones,
daf :-)

DennisOl: Step-by-step instrux are crucial, I think.

KatherinH: ok! I guess we will be spending part of the fall semester in
the computer lab

DennisOl: Good idea, Katherine.

DennisOl: Remember the step-by-step instructions!

TeresaD: they'll enjoy it, katherine. you'll see

DafneG: Mary has just contacted me in D2L, she will not be able to make
it here

DennisOl: Too bad for Mary! I find this chat very interesting--and it's
giving me much to think about.

KatherinH: have you had the opportunity to watch them interact, Dennis,
Teresa, and Dafne?

TeresaD: ok. and i'm enjoying the chat immensely, but i do need to go.
this is one heel of a weekedn workwise. and daf and i also have a
presentation tomorrow

DennisOl: Yes--but mostly to interact with the computer, not each
other.

TeresaD: we have interacted with students on many occasions, katherine,
they love it

TeresaD: we do that with students of other webheads

TeresaD: we are often invited to chat with students in small groups

DafneG: Katherine, I have been teaching blended courses for 2-3 years,
and the results have been amazing

KatherinH: really? sounds interesting!

DafneG: Teresa has been with my students

DennisOl: Since both of you have a presentation and also need a little
"me time," I think it's time to "Hasta que te guacho" ('Spanglish' for
'See you later').

TeresaD: you should both join the webheads

DafneG: my students have presented online for guests all over the world

TeresaD: i like that spanish expression, dennis

DennisOl: Maybe so, Tere. I know Chris Jones and I know how hooked
she's become--and how valuable WebHeads has been for her.

DafneG: I am learning a new expression in Spanish, Dennis :-)

TeresaD: i don't mean to be rude, but i'm overly stressed today. i
hatee to feel tis way

DafneG: Chris had her first chat ever with me

KatherinH: I have to go and check out the Webheads website!

TeresaD: right, dennis. her students were the most recent example of
T-S chats

DafneG: please, do, Katherine,

DennisOl: "Spanglish" is very interesting. Many of my students are also
from Mexico and have special expressions. Do you know what a
"guajalote" is?

TeresaD: ?

DennisOl: -- a turkey.

DafneG: ?

DafneG: he he

TeresaD: lol

DennisOl: They use a lot of Nahuatl words.

DafneG: pavo is the standard work

DafneG: word

DennisOl: They sometimes say (in "Spanish") 'turcolete.'

DafneG: I had to learn a lot of new vocabulary in Spanish when I went
to Spain

DennisOl: And on that cheery note, I'm going to say "Hasta que les
guacho!"

TeresaD: well, i guess i'll leave you all with the pavo or turcolete,
as you wish, and will go on to other things.

DennisOl: This has been really, really nice.

TeresaD: hasta que les guacho, dennis!

KatherinH: I hope you all have a nice weekend!

DafneG: yes, I am very busy today too, I hope next week I will be more
relaxed

TeresaD: and thanks for being here. it was a very interesting chat

DennisOl: Milliones de gracias! Muito obregado! Thanks very, very much!

TeresaD: thank you, dennis!

DafneG: Thanks, Dennis and Katherine!

TeresaD: and katherine!

DafneG: feliz fin de semana

TeresaD: bye all. and a nice weekend!

DafneG . o O ( happy weekend )

DennisOl: Take care, everyone.

DennisOl: Bye.

DennisOl left the room (signed off).

KatherinH: bye

TeresaD left the room (signed off).

DafneG: bye

KatherinH left the room (signed off).

DafneG left the room (signed off).

2005.05.07 09:06:15 Signoff